Debating an Agnostic

http://help.com/post/87698-i-know-that-in-life-you-should-have#mesg

To read my first reply to this link, go here: http://poorhousedad.blogspot.com/2007/08/what-does-it-mean-to-be-christian.html

Xeno Dragon wrote: Agnostics, like myself, however, have no faith. We require proof.

To the contrary: Agnostics take a great number of things for granted — which is to say, they put faith in quite a number of assumptions with no proof at all. They assume that they are capable of sensing and understanding any proof that is put before them. They assume, for that matter, that, even while denying God by default, they deserve to receive some sort of revelation. Usually, they assume their agnosticism frees them from responsibility to search. Most dangerously, they assume they can sit on the fence without suffering dire consequences in the long run. One consequence follows the adage, “if you don’t believe in something, you’ll fall for anything,” especially with all the counterfeits out there. The more obvious consequece, however, is that, whether one rejects God’s gift or merely ignores it, the result is the same.

Xeno Dragon wrote: That doesn’t bother me, as the Christian’s threat of “convert or burn in Hell” is simply fantasy until it’s proven.

Reality does not depend on proof; but in post-modern thinking, people have confused the perception or interpretation of reality with reality itself. Thus, if a woman wants the life within her, it’s a baby; but if she doesn’t want it, it’s a lump of cells. It’s the ultimate form of alchemy: People need not do anything to change lead to gold; they merely call it so, and in “their” reality, it is. And then they pat themselves on the back for being so “logical.”

Quite right you are, though. I must rephrase the quote: “If you don’t believe in anything, you already do.”

Turn, or burn.

Three things about God. First, God is holy, holy, holy. Evil and darkness cannot exist in His presence. Second, God, as Creator, has creative license to do what He wishes with His creation. Third, God has revealed His way since the Beginning, and He provided the way through the death and resurrection of Christ. Since He created a way of escape, we are responsible to take it. It isn’t God’s fault if we don’t. It’s like the Law of Gravity. Dance too close to a cliff and it won’t be anybody’s fault but yours if you get hurt. Judging God and calling Him childish just isn’t rational.

By the way, Lucifer is also the father of lies, and where you find lies, you find darkness. As a liar, Lucifer transforms himself into the appearance of an angel of light — which is a lie; and he was the angel not of knowledge, but of the first-hand knowledge of evil. Also, Lucifer didn’t prepare hell as a place to live; God prepared it as a place to punish Lucifer and those who follow him.

Xeno Dragon wrote: I’d rather burn, then. Why would I want to worship such a childish, temperamental God? Besides, Hell might be cool. You know all the best bands will be there. Lucifer was the Angel of Light and Knowledge, why would he make a sh*tty place to live? Besides, if the Bible is true, I don’t have much chance of getting into heaven. I’m bisexual, a furry, agnostic, I have had other gods before the christian one, I’ve lived on the carnal side of things, and have no reason nor inclination to be sorry, and I’m not a republican… I can’t get in no matter what I do.

Then half my work is done! A healthy man doesn’t call a doctor; a sick man does. Do you know how many people, especially nominal Christians, are too proud and self-righteous to realize what you just said about yourself? Jesus said, “I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.” Jesus didn’t come for Joe Sundaybest with his genuflection and his big gifts to the church; He came for those who know that they are what we all are. Any kind of sins can be forgiven except that of rejecting God’s gift.

Seven deadly sins — seriously, that’s a clever outline!

Xeno Dragon wrote: Assuming this, why have we chosen God as the protagonist? Why not Lucifer?

You insult yourself with that kind of question, but since you mistake rhetorical questions for legitimate arguments, I will answer in kind. Why would the Creator be the center, rather than the created? Why would One who is by nature god be the focus rather than a weakling usurper? Why would the Almighty be the protagonist rather than the one whom the Almighty has bound and limited? Why should the Way, the Truth, and the Life rule our hearts rather than the one who is the Accuser, the father of lies, and the pied-piper of death?

Xeno Dragon wrote: What is wrong with the angel of light and knowledge?

What is wrong with the one who ceased to be the angel of light? What’s wrong with the demon of darkness who still pretends to be an angel of light? What’s wrong with one so dumb that he thinks he can occupy the throne of his Creator? You think Satan is an angel of knowledge, but you’ve allowed him to use a little bit of sugar to make you swallow a load of poison.

Xeno Dragon wrote: We, (still assuming now), worship a deity that would flood the planet, kill millions, torture Job simply to see what happens, wipe entire cities from the map because he didn’t like the people there, and teaches people to hit babies with rocks.

The salient error above is that God did not torture Job; Satan, your precious “angel of light and knowledge,” did that. God accepted responsibility because He stood back to allow Job to prove his devotion to God; but your Satan tortured a righteous man of faith. In contrast, the world that God punished was occupied by a race at the height of rebellion and wickedness. Rebelling against God is like rebelling against gravity: Step off a ladder, and you have nobody to blame but yourself when the consequences hit. What difference does it make if somebody dies and goes to hell after 100 years of turning up hell’s thermostat, or if they die and ********** when they’re in their teens? As perverse as it may seem to say, if somebody knocks you off the ladder before you reach the top, he’s done you a favor. Our Creator has the right to make that decision.

Even so, God provided a way of escape analogous to the one He provides today. If you don’t accept that way of escape, you have nobody to blame but youself when the consequences come. He provided that way of escape for you just as much as for anybody else alive, but He isn’t going to force it on you.

Xeno Dragon wrote: What did Lucifer EVER do that cast him as the antagonist in this story?

In many countries, mutiny is still punishable by death. Satan went beyond that. Having failed to usurp God’s throne, he set about to turn God’s creation away from Him. Fomenting a revolution is still punishable by death in many places, too. He corrupts God’s creation through lies and temptations. He physically attacks people, too. What did Satan do? He’s done or conspired to do every crime in the book.

Xeno Dragon wrote: Sure, he was proud, but look at God!

There used to be a TV show called The Three Sons of Will Sonnett. Walter Brennan played title role, an unbeaten, “good-guy” gunslinger. People would laugh at his age and call him boastful, but he’d reply, “It ain’t boasting if you can do it.” Likewise, it isn’t self-centered if you really are the Center. What darkness it is to blame the Creator for expecting some respect and devotion from His creation!

Xeno Dragon wrote: Greed? God wins that one, look at what he’s taught to get followers and their pocketbooks to show up to church every Sunday.

Many real Christians haven’t reached the point of maturity in their faith where they recognize the greed and manipulation. They have two problems: First, we all start out with a full set of faults; and a lifetime of growth in authentic Christian faith barely begins to get those faults under control. Second, we have your Satan and his minions constantly putting evil intents into people’s hearts. The Bible corrects Christians who get off track just as it does non-believers. You wouldn’t blame the U.S. Mint for counterfeiters; you shouldn’t blame God for the charlatains. What gives a counterfeit its appearance of value is the existence of the real thing. Even the values you refer to come from an attempt to imitate and substitute for the real thing. Not proof, but definitely evidence that the real thing is out there.

Xeno Dragon wrote: Sloth? God wins that contest as well. If we’re still
believing as a christian here, just look at the world, and tell me Satan hasn’t been busy.

Just what evidence do you see that Satan’s been busy? You’ve just implied an admission to Satan’s nature as a deceiver, a destroyer, a fomenter of hatred.
But God’s been busy limiting Satan’s destructiveness. We can’t see the evidence because good events don’t grab headlines. We also can’t see the evidence because we can’t see what would have happened.

Xeno Dragon wrote: Meanwhile, God’s been pretty flakey about coming into work those miracles, lately.

What hubris, that we think God owes us a miracle. There’s no guarantee that we’ll believe if we do see miracles. Many saw Christ’s miracles, yet most denied it or attributed it to Satan. Anyhow, if we believed because miracles obligated us to believe, there’d be no reward in it. Last summer, I drove 50 miles in mountainous jeep trails with the gas gauge on Empty. With 20 miles to go, I started praying and confessing, and when I looked down, the needle had gone back up above the empty mark. You can doubt it if you wish; I doubt God did it for you; but I believe it was a violation of the laws of physics.

Xeno Dragon wrote: I’ve never heard of the “Wrath of Lucifer”, after all. Just the “Wrath of God”.

No, Satan just goes around fomenting hatred and murder, tearing down God’s creation and turning it against God any way he can, and preparing to lead the next insurrection. Such things justify wrath. God would be defective if He didn’t exhibit wrath. He has the jurisdiction.

Xeno Dragon wrote: Well, I’ve never heard of the devil knocking up some married chick for a kid, just to watch the kid die later.

That’s just so twisted! First, go look up the Nephilim. Second, she wasn’t married; she was engaged. Third, God is spirit; and while in that form, spirits can’t “knock up” anybody. Fourth, the virgin conception wasn’t any more sexual than was restoring the muscle cells of the lame or resurrecting a corpse or any other act of creation. Fifth, God didn’t just watch that kid die; God is that (33-year-old) kid. Sixth, that “kid” didn’t just die; He died to take the well-deserved punishment that we cannot bear; and then, to prove the adequacy of His sacrifice and His ability to restore spiritual life to us, His body came back to life.

Xeno Dragon wrote: Envy is right in the bible as well, “For I am a jealous God”, right out of the big guy’s mouth.

Envy is when you covet what’s somebody else’s, and God isn’t jealous over anything that isn’t Hiw own. It isn’t wrong to be jealous of what’s rightfully yours and the object of your love. Is it wrong to be jealous of your spouse? It isn’t if you she goes after other men who will lie to her and abuse her. So God is right to be jealous over people who follow false gods into destruction. And if you can handle this… God is jealous over you.

Xeno Dragon wrote: That’s all seven Deadly Sins, and our good guy wins them all.

The Seven Deadly Sins were made up by one of the counterfeit churches, not by God. All commandments are but individual points of one great Law. Violate one point, and you’ve violated the whole. In that sense, all sins are “deadly.” Ironically, since the resurrection of Christ, there has been but one deadly sin: to fail to receive the gift of life through faith in God’s provision and offering of it.